Sunday, December 13, 2015
Gods Amongst Men
In Book 8, we see the ways in which the gods are directly involved in and concerned with the specific actions and interactions of human beings. In class on Friday I suggested that the gods operate somewhat like the television audience that watches and votes on America's Got Talent, Dancing with the Stars or American Idol. While that might be a helpful pop culture reference to understand the Ancient Greek gods, there are certainly more levels and complexities to them. So, what would you say are those levels and complexities? What do you notice about the different personalities of the gods? Are there particular power dynamics that you are aware of? Do the gods seem to operate on the same interpersonal rules that humans do or do they have their own set of rules? Please cite specific lines from Book 8 to support your assertions about the gods.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
Even though you can think of the Greek gods as a television audience that votes for certain television shows, the gods show a deeper level of complexity. The gods do desire to take sides in the Trojan War, but they take the side of the people who are “closest” to them. Unlike a television show where you don’t know the contestants, the Trojan War is filled with the children of the gods and people who openly worship the gods. Another aspect that plays into the sides that the gods take is the relationships between the gods themselves. The gods clearly have a hierarchy where Zeus is at the very top. This usually leads to Zeus being able to do whatever he wants. This is clearly shown when Hera first becomes upset that Zeus is helping the Trojans beat the Argives. When she says that she wants to confront/ hold off Zeus, another god says, “I for one have no desire to battle Zeus, not you and I and the rest of the gods together. The King is far too strong – he’ll crush us all” (Pg. 238: Lines 239-241). Zeus is so powerful that not even all the gods together could have a chance at stopping him. One must also remember that the reason why Zeus is helping the Trojans in the first place is due to the fact that he was told to by Thetis on behalf of her son, Achilles. Not only does this show the bond between Thetis and Zeus, but it also shows the family relationship between Thetis and Achilles that changes the tides of the Trojan War.
ReplyDeleteAll of this is interesting to think about since the gods seem to follow the same intrapersonal rules as humans. When we think of gods, we usually think about beings that are above human emotions and thoughts. These Greek gods are very similar to humans since they are quick to make allegiances and are easily swayed by the actions of others (both humans and other gods). Some gods also seem to possess human characteristics such as “hotheadedness”, compassion, and sympathy. The gods who show the most compassion and sympathy seem to be Athena and Hera when it comes to the Argives. Athena at one point says, “… we pity these Argive spearmen living out their grim fates, dying in blood … We’ll simply offer the Argives tactics that may save them…” (Pg. 232: Lines 38- 41). Here, Athena is clearly saddened by the fact that Zeus will be helping the Trojans kill off the Argives (to whom she has a close connection to). She even wants to give them advice on how to avoid Zeus’ wrath. When it all boils down to it, the gods are basically a television audience that decide the fates humans. The key thing to remember is that there are a lot more aspects that go into their decisions to help certain humans or sides of people.
You’d expect gods to be all-good supernatural beings above basic human thoughts such as desires and emotions, but the Greek gods are the exact opposite. The Greek gods act and interact with each other very similarly to humans. They possess emotions, they have desires, and they clearly aren’t that nice to each other.
ReplyDeleteIn the god society, Zeus is strictly above all others. Moreover, he is a tyrant. Father of all men and gods, “the highest, mightiest king of kings,” (line 24) Zeus is by far stronger than any other god. Even if all the other gods teamed up and confronted Zeus, Zeus would still easily win, according to a god’s saying: “I for one have no desire to battle Zeus, not you and I and the rest of the gods together. The King is far too strong – he’ll crush us all” (239-241). Because Zeus is over-powered, he expects all to obey him, as he claims at the beginning of the book, “let no lovely goddess - and no god either - try to fight against my strict decree.” (7-8) Gods don’t try to disobey him either, as said by Athena, “we already know your power, far too well… who can stand against you?” (36-37) When a god tries to go against him however, Zeus gets really mad. For instance, when his daughter tries to disobey him, Zeus gets furious: “You, you insolent brazen bitch - you really dare to shake that monstrous spear in Father’s face?” (485-487) His use of the word “bitch” to his daughter well-reflects his bad temper and his being a tyrant, which shows that he does indeed possess negative emotions and desires.
Each of the gods represents their own character and power dynamic in the Iliad, and they manipulate the human world through those traits. They also all fall at different points on a spectrum, so no two gods conflict. Furthest to the power hungry and violent end of this scale seems to be Zeus. He takes action where he feels just throughout the battle—in fact he even went into battle. “He harnessed the bronze hoofed horses onto his battle car…and strapping his golden armor around his body, Zeus takes up his whip…and climbed aboard.” (46-51)
ReplyDeleteBut beyond the power and might of the gods, I think they also exist in this story as more entertainment for the listener (assuming the poem is being performed). Athena challenges Zeus with comments like “We already know your power, far too well…who can stand against you? Even so, we pity these Argive spearmen…” (36-39) Additionally, Queen Hera challenges Posiedon and “stirs in outrage, shaking her throne and Mt. Olympus.” (224-225) It all creates further conflict and interactions for the audience to take in.
I agree 100% with what Jordan said about the gods having a more significant relationship with the mortals than a viewer would have with a TV show contestant. As Achilles is the son of Thetis, who has a close relationship with Zeus, Zeus takes a lot of care for Achilles. It is interesting how Zeus intervenes the entire war just for one nymph and turns his back on every other major goddesses such as Athena and Hera, who clearly have more influence among the immortals. Also, gods in this book were very humane in that they are tremendously biased, which is often a characteristic given only to mortals.
ReplyDeleteWhat also really intrigued me was the role of female and male gods. It seemed as if the male gods, such as Posiedon, fears Zeus’s power even to begin with, while Hera and Athena at least attempt to go against Zeus’s orders to help the Acheans. Posiedon, although he is also one of the most powerful gods, said: “I for one have no desire to battle Zeus, not you and I and the rest of the gods together” (Lines 239-240), which indicates his fear of Zeus. Meanwhile, Hera, who is a female god, urges the other gods to rise up against Zeus’s cause in order to save the Greeks: “If only we, we gods who defend the Argives had the will to hurl the Trojans back and hold off thundering Zeus…” (Lines 232-234), indicating her boldness.
I think I agree with the general consensus that the gods of the Iliad are most certainly not above human emotions. I also agree with Jordan’s point that the American Idol analogy fails when you consider that the gods are fighting to protect their children. For example, Athena says when she enters the battlefield, “Father rages now…not a thought for the many times I saved his son Heracles” (Book 8, 412-414), showing that the gods know each other to value their children. Perhaps more interestingly, the gods aren’t above hating humans. When Athena sees Hector, she says “Let him die a thousand deaths!” The animosity Athena shows to a human, one who is indeed thwarting her efforts but is ultimately an inferior being, shows that the gods are highly invested in the mortal realm. This could be another way the Idol analogy fails – I doubt, no matter how much they say they do, that the contestants love the general people as much as the gods can.
ReplyDeleteI think one of the more interesting dynamics in the Iliad is the one between Hera, Athena, and Zeus. Athena is quite obviously the daddy’s girl, and shows she wants his affection: “Zeus hates me now. He fulfills the plans of Thetis…but the day will come when Father, well I know, calls me his darling gray-eyed girl again.” The Goddess of Wisdom is apparently as emotionally insecure as a teenager. Furthermore, while Athena and Hera quite obviously are scheming to aid the Argives, when confronted by Zeus they both say, “We’ll simply offer the Argives tactics that may save them-so they won’t all fall beneath your blazing wrath” (Book 8, line 539-540). The goddesses here are not just treading lightly around the god who can basically curb stomp them, they are downplaying their involvement in the battle to just “tactics”. It’s a level of duplicity that shows how the gods squabble just like humans.
I agree with basically everything that was stated by Jordan and Agnes but I think that there is more to think about after reading book 8. The seemingly untouchable gods definitely seem petty and childish in their ways of fighting. Their personal emotions and feelings get the best of them. But through all of this, I am most surprised that the Greek gods are portrayed as such untouchable figures when they have the same emotional responses as humans do. It really makes me question why they are even revered. To me, the most logical reason is because they have special powers. With an atmosphere like this, the reason for the war (Agamemnon and Achilles’ fight) suddenly seems normal.
ReplyDeleteI personally would have expected more from the gods if I had lived in this time. Obviously relationships are important and unbreakable bonds are formed in some relationships but in this situation lives are at stake. Of all people (and even immortal beings) I would expect the gods to value lives more than they did in this book. Zeus says, “I’ll maim their racers for them” (line 460) in response to Athena’s and Hera’s attempt to help the Achaeans. This clearly shows his lack of genuine concern for and detachment from the very people who worship him. Again creating the illusion of a relationship like that between the audience and the contestants on American Idol.
I do think that the gods have interpersonal rules like those of humans, but they are also different. There are certain aspects and things that are divided among the gods that are generally viewed as a kind of territory, similar to the different cities ruled by the Greeks. There is also a kind of hierarchy in the mortal society. Kings are above all others and then it goes down from there, but for the gods, there is only one person above all, Zeus. In the mortal society the king can change if he dies or if he is overthrown (which is at least attempted). But in the gods’ cases they are all immortal and Zeus will forever be the ultimate leader because nobody dares to even go against him. The quote that others used clearly shows that: “I for one have no desire to battle Zeus, not you and I and the rest of the gods together. The king is far too strong—he’ll crush us all” (lines 239-241).
All in all, I feel very disappointed by the gods’ behavior. I would have liked to think of them as beings held to a higher standard, but now I cannot. I also really loved Agnes’ point about only the women, Athena and Hera, even tried to go against Zeus. #Feminism.
The relationship between the gods and humans is very interesting because a commonly held truth that gods are above human and this seems to contradict the writings from book 8. Yes the goods are above the humans from a power spectrum but when we look at their emotions they pose many of the same traits as humans. A god who seems to have many human traits is Zeus, who also seems to be the most powerful god, as Hera and Athena know they can’t compete with him. One trait Zeus has that both shows his power over the other gods and as well as his stubbornness could be right in the beginning when he calls the gods and goddesses to Olympus. Zeus calls the gods and goddesses and says, “Hear me, all you gods and all goddesses too, as I proclaim what he heart inside me urges. Let no lovely goddess- and no god either- try to fight against my strict decree.” (Line 6-9, Book 8). Listening to this stubbornness it makes you think if a God said this or Dictator; this manner in which he address these other immortals is by no means god-like if anything closer to more human characteristics. Similar to what Jordan said takes away from the idea that gods act in the manner of an audience for a reality show where they vote. Later in the play we see more of human interaction to as Hera, queen of goddess, went against Zeus and helped the Achaean army. Hera’s human characteristic of sympathy later comes into to conflict with Zeus’s characteristic of stubbornness, which leads Zeus to show another human characteristic of rage. This can be seen when he responds to Hera by having Iris send a long message from Zeus that ends him saying “…you really dare to shake the monstrous spear in father’s face.” (Line 486, Book 8). All and all I there is much deeper complexity to this then the gods choosing because of Zeus’s power and stubborn human characteristics which is ironic because he is suppose to be the most godly and appreciated of them all.
ReplyDeleteIn Book 8 I found that I learned the most about the personalities of the God’s through there interactions with each other or in reference to each other. As I indicated in class, I was excited to see God’s directly communicate rather than just indirectly. Though we have talked about this in class earlier in the year I was particularly struck by the way in which the Gods, apart from Zeus, seemed very subject to human emotions. When Hera is trying to protect the Argives she turns to Poseidon for help who refuses, “You ruthless…not even a twinge of pity deep inside your heart” (223-224). Though we refer to the God’s role in the Trojan War as a chess game it is clear that the lives of the Argives mean so much more to Hera than I would care about a chess piece. On the opposite side of that, Poseidon then shows fear, which surprised me; the narrator writes, “deeply shaken,” Poseidon replies, “I for one have no desire to battle Zeus…he’ll crush us all” (235-240). It surprised me that there is such a clear respect for the power of Zeus from all of the Gods except for Hera and Athena.
ReplyDeleteAdditionally, it is clear that Zeus also has a complex personality. In the beginning of book 8 Zeus seems to just be objectively weighing the fates and deciding not to chose a favorite. However, as Hera and Athena try to step in Zeus gets angry. Finally, after seeing Zeus as a very disconnected figure in terms of his relationship with the other Gods we see him making fun of Hera and Athena when he goes back to Olympus. As we read more about the war we also get insight into the lives of the Gods and their personalities are quickly emerging.